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Excerpts of Clinton's deposition
THE ASSOCIATED PRESSCopyright 1998 Associated Press.
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Excerpts of answers that President Clinton furnished to lawyers for Paula Corbin Jones in a sworn deposition given Jan. 17:
Q: Did you at any time have any form of sexual relations with Kathleen Willey?
A: No, I didn't.
Q: Do you recall, sir, that you met with Kathleen Willey at or near the time of her husband's death?
A: The meeting I recall occurred before her husband's death. She had requested, my recollection is, that she requested several times to come in to see me.
Q: Having read a summary of her testimony are you aware that she (Willey) has testified that you kissed her in the hallway between the Oval Office and the private kitchen.
A: I am aware of that.
Q: And do you deny that testimony?
A: I emphatically deny it. It did not happen.
Q: Do you know why she would tell a story like that if it weren't true?
A: No, sir, I don't. I don't know. She'd been through a lot, and apparently the, the financial difficulties were even greater than she thought they were at the time she talked to me. Her husband killed himself, she's been through a terrible time. I have -- I can't say. All I can tell you is, in the first place, when she came to see me she was clearly upset. I did to her what I have done to scores and scores of men and women who have worked for me or been my friends over the years. I embraced her, I put my arms around her, I may have even kissed her on the forehead. There was nothing sexual about it. I was trying to help her calm down and trying to reassure her. She was in difficult condition. But I have no idea why she said what she did, or whether she now believes that actually happened. She's been through a terrible, terrible time in her life, and I have nothing else to say. I don't want to speculate about it.
Q: Has anyone purporting to speak on her behalf ever asked you to pay money to keep this quiet?
A: Not to my knowledge.
Q: Do you recall at any time in that meeting with Kathleen Willey saying to her, "I wanted to do that for a long time"?
A: No, sir. Let me remind you, Kathleen Willey asked for this meeting with me. I didn't ask for the meeting with her. I didn't say anything like that.
Q: Do you recall meeting with her again in the Oval Office after she returned from her bereavement?
A: I remember that, it seems to me that she came in there once with a friend of hers who was sick, who had cancer, and we had a picture taken. I think you have a copy of that picture.
Q: Do you recall ... that at some point she did receive a job that was a paid position in the White House?
A: Yes, I believe that she went to work in the counsel's office.
Q: What was the process by which she received that job?
A: I don't know the answer to that. After she came to see me, and she was, as I said, clearly quite agitated, when she walked out I said to someone, maybe it was Nancy Hernreich was there who knew her -- ... that we ought to see if we could do something for her, and that's all I heard about it. I don't think I was notified when she got the job at the counsel's office, and I'm not aware of what she did there exactly, but I know that she did get a job in the counsel's office, which she held for some period of time.
Q. Did you have an extramarital sexual affair with Ms. Lewinsky?
A. No.
Q. If she told someone that she had a sexual affair with you beginning in November of 1995, would that be a lie?
A. It's certainly not the truth. It would not be the truth.
Q. Have you ever had a conversation with Vernon Jordan in which Monica Lewinsky was mentioned?
A. I have. He told me that he called -- he mentioned in passing to me that he had talked to her, and she had come to him for advice about moving to New York.
Q. She had come to him for advice?
A. Uh-huh. She'd come to him for advice about moving to New York. She had called him and asked if she could come see him, and Betty (Clinton secretary Betty Currie) I think had maybe said something to him about talking to her, and he had given her some advice about moving to New York. That's all I know about that.
Q. Where were you when you had this conversation with Vernon Jordan?
A. I don't have any idea. I talk to Vernon Jordan a lot.
Q. Do you recall whether it was on the phone or in person?
A. No.
Q. What did he say that she had said to him in response?
A. He just said she seemed like a bright, energetic young woman and she had certain interests, and he made some suggestions to her and suggested where she ought to go for interviews. That's all I know about that.
Q. At the time you talked to Vernon Jordan about his conversation with Monica Lewinsky concerning her possible move to New York, did you express any approval or disapproval?
A. I don't remember. I think he was just reporting on the meeting to me.
Q: Did you ever talk to Dolly Kyle, whose name is now Dolly Kyle Browning, about Gennifer Flowers?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: Did you tell Dolly Kyle that you had a sexual relationship with Gennifer Flowers?
A: No, quite the reverse. I told her that I did not have one. I told her that -- specifically what I said to Dolly Kyle, and I have, I took notes on that, was that her story was not true, the story she had told was not true.
Q: And when did that conversation with Dolly Kyle take place?
A: It took place at my high school reunion, which was sometime in the summer of 1994 or the late spring of 1994.
Q: I'm handing you what's been marked Deposition Exhibit 13. Is this Exhibit a copy of notes that you made of something that happened at that high school reunion?
A: It is.
Q: Did you ever have sexual relations with Gennifer Flowers?
A: ... The answer to your question ... is yes.
Q: On how many occasions?
A: Once.
Q: In what year?
A: 1977.
Q: About how many times did you visit the home of Jane Doe 2 when her husband was not there?
A: I'm not sure. Probably, I don't know, four or five, over a ten-year period, maybe a few more, maybe a few less, I don't know, several times.
Q: And on those occasions, on any of those occasions, were you alone in the house with Jane Doe 2, or were there other people there in the house with you?
A: No, those are -- I answered the question you asked me, on those occasions she was there and I was there alone.
Q: What was the purpose of these visits to Jane Doe 2's house when her husband was not there?
A: The fact that her husband was not there was incidental. She was a friend on mine, and I would go by and see her from time to time. I hadn't been visiting with her in a long time. Sometimes I saw him when she wasn't there. He was a friend of mine, too.
Q: So the purpose was purely social?
A: That's right.
Q: Do you know a woman named Jane Doe 1?
A: I do.
Q: Do you recall her visiting you at the Governor's Mansion between the time that you were elected President and the time that you moved to Washington to take office?
A: I do.
Q: On how many occasions in that time space did she visit with you at the Governor's Mansion?
A: I believe she was there twice. I believe she was there twice.
Q: Was one of those occasions the early morning of the day that you left to go to Washington?
A: I don't -- well, I don't know. She came by early in the morning, either the day I left or the day before that, sometime around then. She wanted to come by and say goodbye, and she had to go somewhere else. She came by early, I was up. I don't remember, I honestly don't remember what exactly day it was, but it was close to the time I left.
Q: Do you recall that Danny Ferguson was with you when she arrived?
A: I don't have an independent recollection of that. I know what the testimony was, but I don't actually have an independent memory of that.
Q: Where did you meet with her on that day?
A: I believe in the basement, which we were sort of using as the all-purpose office at the time, and which was full to the gills of all kinds of things that were being sent in from all over America, but it was kind of an around-the-clock office for us.
Q: Was that basement room sometimes referred to as a game room?
A: Perhaps.
Q: Have you ever given any gifts to Monica Lewinsky?
A: I don't recall. Do you know what they were?
Q: A hat pin?
A: I don't, I don't remember. But I certainly, I could have.
Q: A book about Walt Whitman?
A: I give -- let me just say, I give people a lot of gifts, and when people are around I give a lot of things I have at the White House away, so I could have given her a gift, but I don't remember a specific gift.
Q: Do you remember giving her a gold brooch?
A: No.
Q: Do you remember giving her an item that had been purchased from The Black Dog store at Martha's Vineyard?
A: I do remember that, because when I went on vacation, Betty said that, asked me if I was going to bring some stuff back from The Black Dog, and she said Monica loved, liked that stuff and would like to have a piece of it, and I did a lot of Christmas shopping from The Black Dog, and I bought a lot of things for a lot of people, and I gave Betty a couple of the pieces, and she gave I think something to Monica and something to some of the other girls who worked in the office. I remember that because Betty mentioned it to me.
Q: Has Monica Lewinsky ever given you any gifts?
A: Once or twice. I think she's given me a book or two.
Q: Did she give you a silver cigar box?
A: No.
Q: Did she give you a tie?
A: Yes, she has given me a tie before. I believe that's right. Now, as I said, let me remind you, normally when I get these ties, I get ties, you know, together, and then they're given to me later, but I believe that she has given me a tie.
Q: Now, seated to my right two chairs down is Ms. Paula Jones. Do you recall ever having met her before today?
A: No. I've said that many times. I don't.
Q: Do you recall ever having seen her before early 1994 when she first made public her accusations against you?
A: No, I, I actually saw her on television then, just by accident. I just happened to be walking by a television in the office, and I remember I asked Bruce Lindsey to come there. I said Bruce, do we know this lady? Who is this person? That was my first surprised reaction.
Q: Before you saw Paula Jones on television, do you have any recollection of ever seeing her before?
A: No, sir, I don't have any memory of it. But you have to remember, I've met well over a hundred thousand people since 1991, maybe over two hundred thousand, maybe more than that. I don't know.
Q: Have you ever said to any of the state troopers who were on your security detail when you were governor that any woman had, quote, "that come-hither look," close quote?
A: I might well have done that. That's a phrase I have used. I might well -- I don't have a specific recollection of doing it, but it wouldn't surprise me if I'd said that to a trooper.
Q: What does the phrase "that come-hither look" mean?
A: It means either in look or dress a sort of a suggestive appearance from the look or dress.
Q: Sexually aggressive?
A: Yes.
Q: Between the time when you decided not to run for president in the '88 election and the time when you decided to run for president in the '92 election, did you take any action to try to suppress any rumors about women who allegedly had had extramarital affairs with you?
A: I believe the accurate answer is that because of what happened in the 1990 governor's race I took action to try to prevent erroneous rumors from becoming public news.
Q: All right, sir. What action did you take?
A: Well, if I could begin at the beginning. A man named Larry Nichols worked for the state of Arkansas, and while working there he developed quite a grudge against me because he made 600 long-distance phone calls to various right-wing groups with which he was associated, and when it came out his boss thought the taxpayers shouldn't pay for it and dismissed him. ... He subsequently directed his anger at me and alleged that I had had affairs with a number of women, so the first action I took that I remember was he did this on the steps on the Capitol one day in 1980, [no] '90. A few minutes after this press conference he had, I drove up to the Capitol and a reporter confronted me with it. I said to the reporter, this is the first I have ever heard of it, why don't you call the women and ask them if it's true before you run the story. That's the first action I took. ...
Q: During the 1992 campaign, did you give Betsey Wright the responsibility to deal with rumors about alleged extramarital affairs involving you?
A: Along with the other charges that were made against me.
Q: OK.
A: Which, I, some of which I enumerated earlier in my testimony. Someone had to, someone who knew me, at least, had to deal with any charges that came up and had to find the best way to respond to them.
Q: Now you're aware, are you not, of the allegations against you by Paula Corbin Jones in this lawsuit; is that correct?
A: Yes, sir, I am.
Q: Mr. President, did you ever make any sexual advances toward Paula Jones?
A: No, I did not.
Q: Now, Mr. President, you've stated earlier in your testimony that you do not recall with any specificity the May 8, 1991, conference at the Excelsior. Is that correct?
A: That's correct.
Q: If that is true, sir, how can you be sure that you did not do these things which are alleged in Ms. Jones' complaint?
A: Because, Mr. Bennett, in my lifetime I've never sexually harassed a woman, and I've never done what she accused me of doing. I didn't do it then, because I never have, and I wouldn't.
Q: Did you ever talk to anyone about finding a job for Monica Lewinsky?
A: When she got the job in the legislative affairs office? No.
Q: Before she got that job.
A: No.
Q: Did you ever talk to anyone about the possibility of her obtaining a job in the White House?
A: She, she came there as an intern, and as several of them have, she applied for some job there apparently and got the job. I was not involved in her moving from being an intern to being a full-time employee. I had no involvement in it whatever.
Q: And you never talked to anyone about that?
A: No, I did not.
Q: Is it true that when she worked at the White House she met with you several times?
A: I don't know about several times. There was a period when the, when the Republican Congress shut the government down that the whole White House was being run by interns, and she was assigned to work back in the chief of staff's office, and we were all working there, and so I saw her on two or three occasions then, and then when she worked at the White House, I think there was one or two other times when she brought some documents to me.
Q: Well, you also saw her at a number of social functions at the White House, didn't you?
A: Could you be specific? I'm not sure. I mean when we had, when we had like big staff things for ... like in the summertime, if I had a birthday party and the whole White House staff came, then she must have been there. I don't remember any specific social occasions at the White House, but people who work there when they're invited to these things normally come. It's a -- they work long hours, it's hard work, and it's one of the nice things about being able to work there, so I assume she was there, but I don't have any specific recollection of any social events.
Q: At any time were you and Monica Lewinsky together alone in the Oval Office?
A: I don't recall, but as I said, when she worked at the legislative affairs office, they always had somebody there on weekends. I typically worked some on the weekends. Sometimes they'd bring me things on weekends. She -- it seems to me she brought things to me once or twice on the weekends. In that case, whatever time she would be in there, drop it off, exchange a few words and go, she was there. I don't have any specific recollections of what the issues were, what was going on, but when the Congress is there, we're working all the time, and typically I would do some work on one of the days of the weekends in the afternoon.
Q: So I understand, your testimony is that it was possible, then, that you were alone with her, but you have no specific recollection of that ever happening?
A: Yes, that's correct. It's possible that she, in, while she was working there, brought something to me and that at the time she brought it to me, she was the only person there. That's possible.
Q: Has it ever happened that a White House record was created that reflected that Betty Currie was meeting with Monica Lewinsky when in fact you were meeting with Monica Lewinsky?
A: Not to my knowledge.
Q: Now, have you ever spent the night at a home owned by Jane Doe 7?
A: Yes, I have.
Q: Where was it located?
A: It was located in San Diego, Calif.
Q: And was that while you were president of the United States?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you ever stay in the home of Jane Doe 7 when you wife was not with you?
A: I believe I did once. I believe, I believe I did. I do not remember for sure. I believe I stayed there once when she was not with me.
Q: On that occasion did you have sexual relations with Jane Doe 7?
A: Absolutely not.
Q: Have you ever at any time had sexual relations with Jane Doe 7?
A: Never.
Q: Did you ever attend a party at the Hotel del Coronado which was attended by Jane Doe 7?
A: She and her husband owned the hotel, and I went to several events there, and I think they were there for most of the events I attended.
Q: On any of those occasions were you in one of the rooms of the hotel alone with her?
A: I don't believe so.
Q: Are you aware that a state Grievance Review Committee investigated a complaint concerning the hiring of Gennifer Flowers?
A: I have, I have a memory that there was some, that there was a complaint filed against her. I don't remember that it was about her hiring. I remember there was a complaint filed against her.
Q: Do you remember that the committee found that the procedure used to hire Gennifer Flowers was, quote, "improper" close quote?
A: No, I don't recall that.
Q: What was significant about this event (high school reunion in 1994, where Clinton spoke with Dolly Kyle Browning) that made you want to write these notes about it when you got back to Washington?
A: Well, I think she was -- first of all, she was very upset. Secondly, she was mad at me for not calling her back in 1992 when she was the subject of a potential tabloid story, and she thought it manifested a lack of trust in her. Thirdly, she was mad about the Gennifer Flowers story, and I told her it wasn't true, and she said other people thought it was true, and Gennifer Flowers got a $150,000, and she needed money too, now.
And then she told me about this book she was going to write, said if anybody ever asked her, she would say it was a fantasy, and I pointed out on two or three occasions how we had been friends since she was a young girl, and how I'd always tried to be her friend, and she basically said she didn't want me to be her friend and she was mad at me because I'd never been her lover, especially since she thought I was now Gennifer Flowers' lover, and when I told her Gennifer Flowers' story was bogus and that many, many problems with it had already been proven -- it's very hard to prove your innocence in a case like this, but that we'd done it -- you know, she just was very angry. That's basically what these notes reflect. And I go through, I litanize here what we said and how I tried to be a friend to her.
Q: Did she threaten to take some action such that you thought you would need these notes to protect you?
A: No, she didn't threaten to take any action but I knew she'd been through a really tough time, and, and she said that she was virtually desperate for money, her marriage had dissolved under very difficult circumstances, and she had been a title lawyer making quite a bit of money in Texas when the real estate market collapsed, and there was a lot of lawyers lost their jobs that were doing that kind of work, and I just thought for my protection when I saw the kind of look she had in her eyes and the way she was behaving I should ask Marsha to listen to it and then we should make notes after it was over. I wasn't paranoid like this until things like this occurred.
This article was published on Saturday, March 14, 1998
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