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Clinton: 'State bore the scars of Little Rock in a positive way'
The following is a transcript of President Clinton's remarks in an interview Sept. 24, 1997, with the Arkansas Democrat-Gazette:
ADG: Well, let's begin with some of your personal reflections on what happened at Central 40 years ago this month. You were an 11-year-old living in Hot Springs, attending segregated schools yourself. What memories do you have and what impression did Central leave on you?
CLINTON: Well, first of all, my memories of it were very vivid. I mean, it's all anyone talked about for weeks surrounding it -- even young people that normally don't pay any attention to developments in the larger world. We were -- all the schoolchildren were caught up in it because it was not only the leading story and it was about race, but it was also about our schools. And everybody was arguing it and taking their sides and talking about what it meant.
And then, of course, later, when the schools were closed, there were a number of children from Little Rock who came to Hot Springs to go to school. They were dispersed around the central Arkansas area. So it was something we talked about. And we talked about it in my home, talked about with my grandparents. So it was -- I have very clear memories about it.
ADG: Now you're going to be going back there to Central tomorrow to speak, literally, from the steps where those nine black students made their historic walk.
CLINTON: Yes.
ADG: What do you think Arkansas and the nation learned from those events? And do you think we're better off because of what happened at Central?
CLINTON: Well, I think we're better off that we didn't let the position taken by Governor [Faubus] prevail. It might have been better for Arkansas if it never happened at all. We were the first Southern state of the old Confederacy to integrate our university system. And we had done more integration of state employment and even the state Democratic Party, I remember, than a lot of states had. And there were several little school districts that had integrated their schools before the Little Rock crisis came along. And North Little Rock was attempting to integrate its school system without a court order. So if the leadership of the community and the state had been able to say, "We're going to do this, it's the right thing to do and it's required constitutionally but, moreover, it's right," we might have gotten through it without a crisis. And I think it certainly would have been better for the state, at least in the short run, if that had happened. On the other hand, I think the traumatic effect of Little Rock had probably made Arkansans for years thereafter more sensitive about the whole range of racial issues than they might have otherwise been, and, at least in the '70s and '80s, perhaps more progressive than they might otherwise have been. Not that we still don't have problems. But on the whole our state bore the scars of Little Rock in a positive way and moved forward and beyond that; that's certainly what I felt when I was governor.
ADG: Now, there are some people in Little Rock who feel a great deal of ambivalence about marking the anniversary of this traumatic period both for the state and for the nation. There are some whites who would rather not reopen old wounds. But on the other hand, there are blacks who feel this commemoration is nothing but a facade because Little Rock still may not have reconciled with its past. Given that backdrop, why do you think we need to return to this point in history at this time?
CLINTON: Well, first of all, I do think we should do it. If there are whites who believe it's not a good thing to open the old wounds, I think that this doesn't open old wounds, it heals them. I think that it's important to talk -- it heals them because the right thing was done. We came together as one nation under the authority of law. President Eisenhower and his attorney general did the right thing, and the federal court system worked as it should have. And the constitutional rights of American citizens -- those nine children were American citizens -- and they had a right to an equal educational opportunity. And so, just because the people who lived in our state 40 years ago who were in control of the levers of power made a mistake and gave vent to the popular emotions of the moment, it's not an old wound, it's a fact of history. And we've moved beyond it, and all Arkansans without regard to race ought to be happy to celebrate that. And in terms of black Arkansans who say, well, they feel ambivalent because there are still problems, I would heartily agree with that, that there are still problems -- not simply in Arkansas but throughout the country. But just because there are problems, we shouldn't decline to celebrate what happened. I mean, the 40th anniversary of Central High is not a signal that every problem that is related to race has been resolved in our state or our nation, but it is clearly an occasion for marking what was a watershed event that has led to greater integration, greater opportunity, a growing black middle class, an ability to accommodate other minorities that came along in larger numbers later in the ensuing 40 years throughout our country.
All that happened, at least in part, because those kids and their parents and Daisy Bates and her husband and others had the guts to do this and then to see it through, and because the American legal system worked to protect their constitutional rights. And that is worth celebrating. No one can seriously assert that things are not better today than they would be had we not done that.
ADG: To kind of follow up on moving the concept from 40 years ago to today, Ernie Green was on television the other night talking about how racism remains "an Achilles' heel" for the nation, to use his words. When you attended Boys Nation yourself as a high school student in 1963, one of the party platforms declared "racial discrimination is a cancerous disease and must be eliminated." But --
CLINTON: I supported that.
ADG: But obviously it hasn't been. Do you think that in our increasingly diverse nation that there is any way to truly end racism in all of its forms?
CLINTON: Well, I don't know that you'll ever have any society where there's not a single living soul who's a bigot, or where there's not a single person who, in a weaker moment of insecurity, won't look down on someone else of a different race or look for some racial explanation for some problem that he or she is having. So perfection may not be possible. But I do believe it is possible for people to live together in an atmosphere of genuine respect, even celebration of their differences, if they can acknowledge that they really are inherently equal in the eyes of God, and that they should have an equal chance to live up to their human abilities and their dreams, and if they can acknowledge that for all their differences, they're bound together by the shared values that make America a special place.
I mean, I think the trick for us is to deal with our old, unfinished business and recognize a completely new racial reality that will come to dominate the 21st century as we become ever more multiracial, multiethnic, multireligious, and still say the most important thing is we're Americans.
One of the reasons that I -- the biggest reason I appointed this racial advisory board and asked the American people to work with me for this on this issue for at least a year is that there is unfinished business in America between African-Americans and whites, just as there is with Native Americans and Hispanics, although there's not as many people involved. But this country is rapidly becoming a multiracial, multiethnic country. People from nearly everywhere from the world are here now. When you're talking about Caucasians or white people, you're really talking about a huge number of different ethnic groups. There are different ethnic groups now among people of African ancestry, and different ethnic groups and national groups among Hispanics and among Asians. So this country is exploding in its diversity.
And if you think about it, it's a terrific advantage in a global economy, a global society, a world where we want to be a leading force for peace and prosperity. But it's an advantage only if we can learn to live and work together, which means we have to work on both the unfinished business between white and black America, and trying to create a country in which we can come together with far greater diversity than anyone could've imagined 40 years ago at Little Rock.
You think about the sort of mentality -- the sort of us vs. them mentality -- that dominated that conflict. Most of those people would have been literally incapable of imagining an America that looks like Los Angeles does today or Wayne County, Michigan, does today or the Miami school system. They just wouldn't have -- so we have to deal with both things.
ADG: A bit of a hypothetical here. In hindsight, given the enormous personal difficulties faced by the nine black students, the subsequent turmoil that beset Little Rock and the 40 years essentially of legal wrangling over desegregation that continues to this day in central Arkansas, might the city and the cause have been better served if those students had withdrawn from Central and given Little Rock a chance to prepare for future integration rather than having it federally imposed?
CLINTON: No, because I don't think -- life doesn't work that way. I mean, once you start down a road like that, you can't back up. You can't say -- once the Supreme Court had done what it manifestly had to do and in prior cases -- prior to the Little Rock case ... and the local district judge's ruling before that -- had said that black people were full citizens of our country and had constitutional rights, among which were the right to equal opportunity in education, and that the so-called separate-but-equal school systems were a sham. It was inevitable that people would seek those rights. Once you have a right, you can't say it's delayed.
You know, how would you feel if I said the Democrat-Gazette writes a lot of inflammatory stuff and there is a right to the First Amendment, but if you could simply delay whatever it is that's on your mind for six or seven months while we all get adjusted to it, I would appreciate it. And we would all be better off, we would all get along, and all the incumbents would stay in office, and nobody would have to buy Alka-Seltzer, and everything would be hunky-dory. You would say, "No, I think I'll exercise my rights."
It's not a hypothetical that really can be asked. The only way that ever works is if no one is willing to pay the price. Once those kids were willing to pay the price, and their parents were willing to pay the price, and Daisy Bates and L.C. Bates and all the others were willing to pay the price, the die was cast. And it then became incumbent upon people in leadership positions to decide. They either had to decide to divide and conquer in the short run and impose an enormous burden on our state in the long run and doubtless some enduring scars on those children and on the white kids that were in conflict with them, or they could have taken a different path.
You know, that happens to people in leadership positions quite often. Just once in a moment, you may just have a day to decide. You have to make a decision that will have an impact on millions of people for decades to come. But I think leadership plays a key role in this.
You look at Bosnia. You know, everybody says well, what do you expect from Bosnia? Those people have been fighting with each other for centuries. Well, that's not entirely true. There were periods over the last 700 years when they got along just fine. There were periods over the last 70 years when they got along just fine. Leadership fueled the latent fires of racial hatred in Bosnia.
And I don't want to compare what Governor Faubus did in any way to what happened in Bosnia or what's going on in Northern Ireland or what happens in the Middle East or anyplace else. But in every one of these cases, community leaders and people with the legal authority to act have to decide whether they're going to pay the price to gamble for unity or reap the benefits of division in the short run. It's almost always wrong to choose the short-run benefits of division.
ADG: Clearly, you've made race a central issue for your second term. Can you talk for just a minute about the fact that you grew up in Arkansas? How did that shape your views on race?
CLINTON: Oh, it had everything to do with it. First of all, you know, I was born in a little town which was hardly big enough to be segregated. I mean, it was segregated. But my grandparents who raised me until I was four were people of very modest means. And they both worked, but they were able to -- they had to afford someone to take care of me in the daytime, and a black woman took care of me when I was little. I went to her home. I visited with her family. I kept up with her after I went to college. But then we were also -- my grandfather had a little grocery store, and most of his customers were black. And I hung around the store, played with kids when they came in and talked to people.
And then as I got older, the Little Rock experience and the whole integration fight had a -- it was sort of the single most formative experience of my childhood. And I remember when I was at Georgetown, I used to come home for Christmas vacation. I'd take a day off and just drive to the Delta and ride around by myself, drive through the country roads and look at the sharecroppers' shacks they were living in and try to figure out what was still going on, what else we had to do.
And I promised myself when I was a young man if I ever had a chance to do anything about this, to try to make it better, to try to make it work, that I would do anything I could.
And it probably all really began with Little Rock because I think before that I had never had to come to grips with the unnatural pattern of segregation that existed even in my own life. And I thought it was enough if I was nice to everybody without regard to their race. And I think my sort of coming of awareness ... of this really began with Little Rock.
But it was -- by the time I was in college -- it was kind of the driving passion of my life and my concern for political activity.
ADG: One last question. We'd be remiss if we didn't get your thoughts on how your presidency has affected your home state. Now you've been gone from Arkansas and in the White House for nearly five years. During that time, obviously, an enormous amount of scrutiny has focused on the actions of yourself and other Arkansans. And there are investigations that are continuing, and perhaps even expanding, in your second term. You, yourself, in the past have characterized this as a "relentless, five-year personal-destruction attack" orchestrated by the Republicans. Do you feel the people of Arkansas, or the state itself, have suffered unfairly because of your presidency?
CLINTON: Oh, sure. But again, I would say -- that's kind of like the question you asked me about Little Rock. They're going to have to decide whom they're going to hold responsible for it and whether they're going to reward the people that did or send them a message.
I had a lot of people tell me -- a person in the other party, when I began running for president, he said, "We can go after Arkansas. We can make the national press believe anything about Arkansas."
And I think there was a lot of prejudice against our state because it was a small state, because it was a Southern state and because people didn't know the first thing about it. And early on, there was a little gullibility and willingness to believe a lot of things which weren't true. And, yes, I think it's been unfair.
But, to be fair, I also think that the state has benefited a lot. A lot of people have come there who wouldn't otherwise have come there. A lot of people have made friends with people of Arkansas that otherwise wouldn't have. The economy has done very, very well. Everything that I've done in promoting the economy or education or welfare reform or anything else for the country has redounded to the benefit of the state.
I think the service of people like Rodney Slater and Bob Nash and Craig Smith and all the other people -- James Lee Witt -- and all the other people from Arkansas who've served has redounded to the credit of the state. You know, if you take just James Lee Witt -- he's become literally a folk hero in the Midwest during the floods there and in California and all the problems they had there.
So I think the state came out of it ahead. But I think that Arkansas was subject to some blows that it never would have been if I had been from Illinois or Ohio or someplace more familiar to the people who wrote about the presidency. And I regret that very much.
But again, as I said, I think on the whole the people of our state have come out way ahead, and I think the image of our state is good, and I think the results of my presidency have been exceedingly positive for the people of Arkansas. And I just think when things happen that you don't think are right or fair, you have to decide how you're going to respond to them. And I think the appropriate response is to stand up against them and rear back and tell people that you know who did what and you'll be heard on the subject. That's what I hope the majority of the people will do.
CLINTON: I want to say one thing to you. I think it is fabulous what you guys did in reprinting all the old newspapers. I read it voraciously, and I gave it to all the people who were working with me on my speech, you know. It was so helpful. I read the newspapers, and I also got a copy of -- one of my staff members found an old copy of Time magazine from Sept. 23, 1957. And I read that and the old papers that you reprinted to try to get ready for this. It was just wonderful.
ADG: Great, we'll pass that along.
CLINTON: Thanks.
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Copyright 1997, Little Rock Newspapers, Inc. All rights reserved.
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